Cosmos: 

Welcome back to the show, my fellow extraordinary Americans. Today’s guest is Bill Flynn. Bill has collaborated with Alan Mulli and Amy Edmondson, pitched Steve Jobs, accomplished much, failed often, and learned many useful lessons from 30 years of studying the science of success. 

He’s best described as a pragmatic Simon cynic, an optimist, and an operator. Bill embodies his core purpose, simplified servanthood, by spreading each working moment to help create a compassionately productive society by enabling enlightened leaders to focus on the few things that truly matter to their teams and key stakeholders. He has worked for and advised hundreds of companies, including startups, where he has a long track record of success spanning multiple industries. 

Bill has been a VP of Sales eight times, twice as CMO, and once as a GM of a $100 million IT services division before pivoting to become a growth coach in 2015. Before that, he achieved five successful outcomes, including two IPOs and seven acquisitions, as well as a notable turnaround during the 2008 financial crisis. Bill’s work has evolved beyond his best-selling book, Further Faster: The Vital Few Steps That Take the Guesswork Out of Growth, into a comprehensive performance operating system series that addresses the fundamental transition from hero leadership to systematic excellence. 

His frameworks help leaders build organizations that develop emergent intelligence capabilities, which exceed what any individual leader could accomplish on their own. He’s an extraordinary American, and I’m glad and honored to have him on the show. Bill, it’s so good to have you on the show. I really appreciate this.

Bill Flynn: 

My pleasure. That was a lot. I’m going to have to shrink that down. Sorry about that.

Cosmos: 

Yeah, for sure.

But Bill, can you tell the audience about your story, how you got started in business, and just everything in general?

Bill Flynn: 

Sure. I was probably just getting out of college, and luckily, I had a family member whom I call my uncle, but he’s an uncle by love, as we like to say. And he took some time with me, sat down, and we talked through some things. He introduced me to several companies with which he had been working or was currently working, primarily to conduct informational interviews. 

And then one of them hired me. And I sort of started on my way in high tech here in the Boston area. And that’s sort of the, that’s sort of what got me going. I discovered that I really enjoyed that kind of environment. I like puzzles and, you know, trying to figure those things out. You know, startups are basically just puzzles that you’re trying to figure out. That’s essentially where I began.

Cosmos: 

So, Bill, what was the strategic vision for your life, from where you got started to where you’re now? Was it a constant thing? Did you have a five- or ten-year plan? Or is it something that was just constantly evolving?

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah, I don’t believe in long-term plans. I think life shows you that those are probably not something that usually works out. There’s something in that model; it’s called the messy middle. And just things don’t go the way that you think they’re going to go. 

But I think having a general idea of where you want to go is good. I’m a big fan of sort of figuring out the end, if you will, or the outcome, or whatever you want to describe that thing, your vision. 

And then just then, starting from where you are, and then it’s, okay, so what’s the next thing that I can do to get me closer to that thing over there? I also didn’t realize I was doing this, but I found that energy and time are the two key factors for me. 

And what I mean by that is when I’m doing something that gives me energy, right, that I’m enjoying. And then time is flying, right? You just sort of, the time is warped, and things go. You’re doing it for an hour, and you just don’t realize that an hour has passed. It feels like it was five minutes. I think those are important things for people to consider, because your body and brain will tell you things, and you need to listen to them. Right. You can certainly modify things and change things. It’s a problem. No, I can’t.

So, there you are. I’ve found that when I focus on those two things — energy and time — I’m almost always satisfied with the results. Right.  I’ve never really decided. Here’s what I want to do. I never decided I wanted to go into sales. I’m not really a salesperson. I’m much, much more of a marketing mind, if you will—sort of back to that puzzle thing. 

But that was where I started and, you know, I was pretty good at it, after a while. I wasn’t very good at it at the beginning. But I decided, ah, you know, that I would understand why I wasn’t good at it. I was told early on, here’s how you. Here’s what a good salesperson is. And a lot of your listeners who are salespeople or know them, you know, it’s about. You’re taught that you have to create rapport, be likable, know your product, know your competition, and so on. And I did all that, and I still was terrible at it. 

And I really couldn’t understand why. And so I decided to. I sort of looked at it as a puzzle, and I said, Well, what is decision making? And is decision-making really helping someone else? I should say, what are sales? It’s really helping someone else make a decision. That’s your job. 

And then I said, ‘Well, how do people make decisions?’ And then that’s how I got into neuroscience: I learned that most decisions are made in the brain, as it turns out. Somewhere between 30-some odd thousand and 60,000, depending on what you read, are the decisions we make in a day. 

And most of them are from your brain. Supposedly, you have other parts of your body that make decisions ahead of you, ahead of, et cetera, your heart and your gut, because there are neurons in there as well. But I said, okay, well, how does that work? And what I found was that when we decide for a human being, our limbic system lights up first inside our brain. And our limbic system is our emotional center of the brain, and it has no language whatsoever. So, we make our initial decision on almost everything based on emotion. 

Now we can slow it down and make it more rational, but if we don’t, then we’re just making up reasons after the fact. We’re basically justifying this emotional decision rationally. So, when I learned that, I thought, ‘Okay, I need to apply that to selling.’ And so I learned how to manipulate the other side, basically. Right? I mean, that’s basically what I was doing. I didn’t do it in a nefarious way. You know, I wasn’t trying to trick anyone.

Cosmos: 

Some people call it influence. They say that ‘manipulate’ has a negative connotation. But, I mean, I understand completely that.

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah, no, I was, I was totally manipulating them. I mean, I knew how their brains were working, and they didn’t. Right. So, in essence, I did things that allowed them to feel comfortable, deciding my way. So.

Cosmos: 

I’m curious. So did you use NLP?

Bill Flynn: 

No. So NLP is not really a thing. We can go into that. Okay. It has also been debunked by neuroscience and cognitive behavioral science. It has a lot to do with unconscious biases, and that’s why we think it works. 

Well, it actually doesn’t do what you think it’s doing.

And it’s more correlational versus causational. But anyway, so, you know, I found out that, you know, if this is an emotional thing, then, I would. I would create it in a situation where they could be emotionally more attached to me and to what I was doing. And whenever I did that, the solution I provided was good for them, because I would work closely with the client. 

And if I determined that what they wanted wasn’t what I had, then I would tell them. And sometimes they would argue with me. Right. Because again, they were so emotionally attached to the situation, they’re like, no, no, no, we’ll figure something out, you know, and I said no. 

And I said, you’ll be unhappy in six months because we don’t do that. And by the way, then you’re going to be unhappy with us. It won’t do what you wanted it to do. And, you know, I’d rather have. I’d rather have happy clients than take your money. 

So whenever it was a fit, I never lost because I knew something that my competitors didn’t know. Right. I knew how to essentially manipulate someone else’s brain so that they would make a decision that was in my favor and feel good about it. So, you know, that’s sort of, that’s sort of how I got started. And then eventually I did 10 startups, as you said. I had seven acquisitions and two IPOs. I was five for five for 10. Actually, at one point, I was five for six, which is an unheard of percentage. Right? 

It’s 85%. That’s most. Mostly it’s 10. And it wasn’t me. I was with a good bunch of folks. We worked well together. I picked well as well. And then about 10 years ago, I became a growth coach. I decided to try something new. I had an experience in the middle of startups five and six that I really enjoyed, and I wanted to try to replicate it again. And so that’s what I do now.

Cosmos: 

So, Bill, I wanted to get a little bit deeper into understanding, because, you know, they say that emotions are what is ultimately the main factor in people buying things. Right. 

All marketing is ultimately based on trying to manipulate or influence a person’s emotions. So I just wanted to gain a little more understanding of how you approach things. What exactly did you learn about a person’s brain and mind, and how emotions play a role in buying and all of that?

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah, sure. So, many things accompany that. So on the positive side, you know, our own brain is always looking for reward, right? And so it goes towards reward and away from threat. And so, when you sit, you can create a situation where this thing I have is protecting you from a threat. Actually, threat is supposedly twice as powerful as reward. Right. 

So we’re much more likely to. To move away from a threat than we are to a reward. And there are many games that psychologists play with people. There’s a game called the, Oh, what’s the name of it? Start with a D. Anyway, it’s. It’s a game where you basically play against yourself. You give people basically fake money. 

So let’s say you and I are playing and we don’t see each other. You’re in another room, and I’m in one room. You receive $20, and you can give me as much of that $20 as you’d like. And then I get the choice to accept the amount or not. And if I don’t accept it, neither of us gets any money. Now, logically, it’s free money, right? 

Even if you give me a dollar, it’s more money than I had before. But we have this thing. I call it a fairness gene. I don’t think it’s a gene, but I, you know, it seems so genetic that, you know, we think if something’s unfair, we would rather punish ourselves. 

So you don’t get rewarded because we think it’s unfair. Right. So, the ones I’ve read about were actually a $10 thing; if it was less than $3, I think it was 60 or 70. 70% of the time, the person receiving the money rejected it because they just didn’t think it was fair. 

And you know, we’ve inherited this brain. And I like to say, you know, the reason we. The reason I’m here, the reason you’re here, your family is here, etcetera, is because our ancestors ran away, right? They didn’t go towards, ‘ Hey, let’s. ‘ That. What’s that orange and brown thing? Or in the, in the, in the brush and you were curious. Those who were curious were killed. Right. 

Or those that, you know, sort of, you know, looked over the cliff or did. Did. Did daring things. Their genes were removed from the pool. Those who were left were the ones who, in essence, kept themselves alive. And they were alive because even though we are now the apex predator, we weren’t before, right? 

We were just another mammal that was in a very dangerous world. So those who ran away were good. So, so. We have a sort of negativity bias. And in this world we live in today, our brain doesn’t distinguish between social threats and physical threats. The same parts of your brain light up when we create a situation.

Cosmos: 

Right, sorry, fight-or-flight response.

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah, fight, flight, or freeze. Right. Those are sort of the three. Three things that we do. And so we, We. That is our initial response. Now we have a prefrontal cortex, located at the front of our brain, which is a real part of our brain. The reason we’re an apex predator is that this trait developed in us but not in other primates, and that’s how we became human. And, you know, in the Homo sapiens or whatever we are now. 

And so we can, if we slow down, reverse that. Right. Most of what I do with my clients, I say my job is just to. To get you to slow down. Right. And think through things and work through pre-mortems and post-mortems and, you know, what-ifs and what are the other ways that this could work? Just so you’re slowing your brain down so you’re not making this amygdala response to everything, which sometimes is. Right, right. 

When you’re really well-versed in something, an amygdala response is probably correct. However, most of the time, we tend to believe that our initial thoughts are correct because we receive rewards. We have a success bias. We tend to remember successes more often than we recall failures over time. 

So we think, ‘Oh, well, since the last time, I just went with my gut; it worked out great, so I should go with my gut on this.’ One, but that was about something you knew deeply and well, versus this new thing that you know nothing about. And we, we know. We know less about more things than we know a lot about things, right?  I like to say I know a lot about a little and a little about a lot. Yeah. Right. And so when something comes up where I know a lot, then my gut is probably correct, I should still check it.

But when I apply that to the thousands or millions of things I don’t know, then I get into trouble. That’s essentially how I view it from a business or financial perspective, or any other perspective. 

We know that we often think our gut is correct, but we don’t check it thoroughly. And we should, and that’s, that’s sort of when you, when you slow down, you have to, that’s when your brain gets a chance to, you know. Daniel Kahneman, a Nobel Prize-winning psychologist, states that the human brain has two systems. The old one, which is system one, 99 of our decisions are made in the old system, right? Because it’s super easy. It’s, you know, keeps our heart beating, you know, moving this way a lot, a lot of things that you don’t, you shouldn’t be thinking about, right? 

So, for instance, I like to say this. When you’re, when you’re first learning to ride a bike, you’re in system two, right? You’re thinking about everything, right? You’re trying to keep your balance, you’re trying to keep your feet moving. You’ve got to, you’ve got to move your hands, right? You’ve got to watch out for traffic. 

But you know, I don’t know if you ride a bike or not, but, right, if you, if you now ride a bike, you don’t think about any of those things, right? They’re now in system one, right? You can now listen, and you can probably have a conversation on the phone. You could also text if you wanted, or ride without hands, which you couldn’t do at the beginning. That’s a good example of how we transition from a system to thinking in the moment, where we’re thinking through the process, rather than not thinking about something at all because we’re so skilled at it. Our brain has now stored it in long-term memory, and we no longer have to think about it. But most things are not like that.

Cosmos:

I see.

So, Bill, if there is a practical application of this, of this knowledge of, well, where we are influencing the reptilian or the mammalian part of the brain to create emotions in the other person, how would somebody in marketing and sales go about doing that?

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah, so. Good question. Let me tell you what I did, right? So, I did a whole bunch of things, but the thing that I did the most, I would say 80% of the time, if not more. Before I started any meeting, especially an initial meeting with a client or a prospect, I did two things. 

One is, as I sort of entered the room, I would assess the situation, and I was looking for the bully with the juice, which is the term I’ve come to. Right. And it’s not bullying in a bad way. Right. But there’s almost always someone, or one or two people, in a room of salespeople who may be the head person, but it isn’t always the case. Sometimes it’s just someone who has more knowledge in a certain thing. You know, I sold pretty technical things, and sometimes the head of marketing wasn’t technical. They were, you know, much more creative, et cetera. 

So they relied on someone else. So, you find that person or those people, and then that’s who you’re really selling to. So you want to focus on that, but you don’t want to ignore everyone else. So, once I identify that person, I would then ask, usually the head person first, but then I would go around the room and say, ‘Okay, so this is an hour-long meeting, give or take.’ Can you, can you describe for me what would be a great meeting for you at the end? Right. 

The meeting’s over. It went as well as it could have gone for you. What happened? And then I would certainly ask the VP or whoever I was talking to, such as the CEO, and then I would go around the room and say, ‘Okay, anyone else?’ You know? And I would look at people, Do you want anything to add? And so, I would write everything down that they said. And then I would tailor my pitch to what they said. Right. 

And that’s what I would do, because sometimes they wouldn’t say things that I knew other clients found important. And so I would say, I would ask for permission. After I went through that and said, You know, there are a couple of things that you didn’t say that a lot of people really want to know. Would you mind if I just sort of added those on so we. You can get as full a picture as you need. Again, my job is to help them make a decision. And then almost always they would say yes. Right? 

And I did it very quickly. As I went through, I checked off the list and said, ‘So, you.’ You asked for this? Yep. What did I do? Anything missed there? Nope. And, you know, there’s usually five or six, maybe seven or eight things tops on the list. And I would go through the whole thing. I have now basically put them in a frame of mind of where. Where they really like me. Right. 

And they don’t even know it because I have put them first. Right. This is about you, which everyone likes. Right. Make it about me. I have acknowledged their. What their needs were. I articulate. I said them back to them so they knew I was listening. And I gave them what they said they needed to make a decision. 

And again, whenever I did that, I did a few other things as well along the way. Because you can’t just do it once and then ignore them, right? You have to be sort of sincere about the process and sometimes the sale. Some of my sales would take months to close, so I had to keep checking in and doing those types of things, letting them know that they were important. That their needs were being met, and so on. But whenever I did that and the fit was good, I. As I said, I never. I never lost a deal.

Cosmos: 

Wow.

So, Bill, when you’re, when you’ve done all these sales and all this marketing and you’ve done all this coaching over the years, right? What is the biggest revelation you’ve had about human nature and people in general? All of these years? And then,

Bill Flynn: 

My revelation is that people are crazy. We’re just, you know, our default is irrational, impulsive, emotional. That is our default. And by the way, that’s not a bug, that’s a feature. Right? That is why we are here. Our ancestors, you know, didn’t. You know, it might have just been the wind rustling in the. In the trees. They didn’t care. They ran like hell. Right? They’re, you know, I don’t. I don’t want to find out if I’m right or wrong. They just ran. Right. Which technically is irrational. Right? It was just the breeze. 

But that’s what the genes that survived. So you have to understand that. But what’s interesting is that we are predictably irrational. There’s a great cognitive psychologist, I think. M. Dan Ariely has written numerous books on how irrational we are, providing numerous examples of our irrational behavior. Right. So one. One example is that I’m not sure if he did, but he talks about it. So let’s say, you’re in a room, you know, we’re doing this experiment, and we’re in this room, and you’re asked to, you know, sort things or whatever, and then all of a sudden, from the vents, smoke comes, right? 

Now, if you’re all alone in the room, what you’re likely going to do is get up and get out of the room. However, if I’m in the room with you or more than one of us, and we don’t do anything, the chances are that you won’t. Move. Because it’s called a social event. Social desirability bias. Right? It’s, well, they’re not moving, so it must be fine. So, you know, and.

Cosmos: 

We do what the group does.

Bill Flynn: 

The environment has a lot more. A lot more influence on us than we think. Right. That’s the environment that you’re in. Right. There’s another one I really love: a dentist’s office, with a bunch of people waiting. 

And then one guy,  some bell goes off, and he gets up from his seat, stands up for a minute, just stands there, whatever, and then sits back down. And then the other six people in the room are looking at him like he’s crazy. But then they start to go to the dentist, and other people come in, and he keeps doing it. And then what happens is eventually someone else does it with him. And so over time, all six people are doing this thing, and they have no idea why. Right.

Cosmos: 

So, Bill, you know, what you’re saying is absolutely true, and it’s based on evolutionary biology, but then there’s the Western culture, which is based on the Greek philosophy of Plato, Aristotle, and all of these Greek philosophers. They discuss how we are logical and rational beings. 

And so it’s interesting that you’re saying this because we’re comparing. Contrasting the Greek ideology that has benefited Western civilization with what the reality is.

Bill Flynn: 

Right. What’s really hypocritical about that is that the Greeks believed in multiple gods, right? And that each one had a particular thing. One was for rain, one was for thunder, one was for love, one was, you know, which, you know, whatever your. Whatever your beliefs are in that Arena. You know, we’ve sort of moved away from polytheism to monotheism. You know, we can still argue whether that’s even true or not. So it’s sort of ironic, right, that you know, they were all about rational thought, but. And they made up things to explain things they couldn’t explain, which is not logical, irrational at all. Right? However, there were people like Aristotle and Archimedes, among others, who conducted experiments, some of which were incorrect. Right? 

So, you know, Aristotle was proven wrong by Newton and others, but at least they went and tried things to see if it was true. However, it’s definitely more akin to a Western Eastern philosophy concept. But in the end, you know, we’re, we’re, our brains are basically the same, right? Is, you know, whether, you know, the reason we’re different is because you grew up in a different climate than I did, and your ancestors developed capabilities so you would survive better. Right? 

So if you were in a warmer climate, your skin would be darker. If you moved to a lighter climate, you know, it was lighter because you didn’t need to have the melatonin in your skin to help fend off things, et cetera. However, our brains haven’t changed significantly. According to what I’ve read, between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago, there were relatively few people on Earth—perhaps thousands, or perhaps hundreds of thousands, in total. 

So we all basically have the same brain. And you know, we like to argue that there are differences, and yes, there are cultural heritage differences, and so on. But, but, and that shapes some brains, but the general structure is the same. So, we are all irrational, impulsive, and emotional by default. 

And then you can counter that by slowing your thinking down and questioning your assumptions. Right. But they say Don’t believe everything you see. And the phrase I like is Don’t believe everything you think.

Cosmos: 

It’s incredible, right? 

How when you first, when you start understanding people and when you accept this understanding that people are deep down irrational versus what we’ve been taught over the two and a half thousand years since Greek civilization that men are like humanity, are rational beings, then you it actually this psychology, helps us with marketing and sales and it’s just so profound how it how it applies to business and all of that. So, it’s interesting.

Bill Flynn: 

Agreed, agreed. And so I’m a stoic, I study stoicism, which is about two. Two, dating back to approximately 2,000 years ago. And it is a Greek philosophy. It was around Socrates. And basically, it is what you’re saying, which is that you can’t control everything that happens to you, but you can control how you respond to it. And that’s really the biggest control we have in our lives, which is you can control how you respond to something. Now, I’ve had many arguments with people who’ve told me that they can’t control how they respond to something at all, right? 

My mother said this, or they made me do this. And, you know, I’m never gonna, I’m never gonna convince them. But the answer is no. You’ve just been conditioned that way. You can change that if you want. It takes work, right? Because your body is. Your brain is a prediction engine, and it’s super lazy. 

So, what happens is that when it encounters a situation, it recognizes it and defaults to the behavior. Whatever it is, whether it’s good, bad, or neither, it will default to that behavior first. Because that’s easier, right? It’s sort of like going to the gym, right? It’s a lot easier not to go to the gym, because your body says, ‘I don’t want to work harder, I don’t want to have to develop muscles, etc.’ The same thing you’re doing with your brain.

Cosmos: 

So stoicism is what they have in the West, and Zen and Buddhism, and meditation is what they have in the East. However, it requires mastering your thoughts and emotions and being able to respond rather than react. So what you’re saying is accurate, you know.

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah, agreed. And I do yoga nidra pretty much every day. You know, those who are unfamiliar with yoga nidra. It’s not yoga, right? It’s not doing bending, etc. It’s actually you. 

You’re essentially slowing down your brain. And it helps you to relax. It helps you actually to feel more rested, even though you haven’t slept. It often helps me get back to sleep because I’m now in my 60s, and I tend to wake up frequently. 

So, getting back to sleep, I just turn on Spotify, and then, you know, Yogi Brian or whoever tells me a couple of things, and in 10 minutes, I’m out again. So I like to combine both. I think they’re both valuable.

Cosmos: 

So, Bill, I have one question that I wanted to ask you, and I was really curious to get your opinion on it. Right. 

We’ve discussed how people can be emotional and irrational, and then explored group bias and its impact on marketing and sales. So, from your perspective, how do you see cult leaders and cults, and do they have special marketing or sales things that they’re doing unconsciously that influence the masses in a particular way?

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah. So I haven’t studied this too much. It’s sort of been a byproduct of all of the things that I’ve read, and I’ve been studying neuroscience for about 30 years now. What I found is that, in both good and bad ways, we as human beings have two main desires. One is that we want to feel like we’re unique. 

And again, that’s culturally dependent. Right. You know, the Chinese have a more homogeneous society. We, we in America are, you know, we’re all about the individual and, you know, the hero and all that kind of stuff. And we want to feel like we’re unique. But we also want to feel like we belong. So there’s this weird sort of dichotomy of how do you do that? 

So, we see it everywhere. You see it in, you know, goth or in tattoos or, you know, pick your thing. Right. I want to feel unique, but part of something else. There’s a great meme that I saw years ago, where you’re in a college setting —a US college setting. And it’s a sort of stadium seating, right? You can see the hundred or so students, all of whom are on their laptops, and they’re all using Apple laptops, right? They’re all silver. And at the bottom, it says be different.

Which is hilarious because every single one of them has the same thing. But to them, they’re different. Right. Because this group that I’m in is so different from those other groups. So I think that’s also why people are attracted to, you know, leaders. We like a compelling vision or a compelling personality that makes sense, and perhaps we’re searching for something, whatever those reasons may be. And you certainly can, as I said before, I could. I was manipulating my clients, right? 

So, to me, a cult leader is basically manipulating his followers. You can have a good cult leader, you know, one who is manipulating in a good way, I would say. Steve Jobs was a cult leader, but he was doing it to have human humanity progress through technology, right? Or you can have a David, what’s his name, Koresh or whatever, you know, who is then really doing it for his own benefit, right? It was really to enrich himself, and you know, he had lots of wives and lots of kids, and you know, it wasn’t a good thing. To me, that’s the same thing. One applied it in a hopefully progressive way, and the other just decided to have it for themselves, you know, for selfish reasons, for egocentric reasons. 

So we follow them anyway. Anyway, sometimes they’re good, sometimes they’re not good in terms of our own, our own benefit. So that’s sort of why I think you have a situation where people are happy to follow someone, and then what happens is that all our other unconscious biases come into play because now we have an identity associated with this person, right?

So we’ll just ignore things that contradict that identity. And so it’s called motivated reasoning. It’s called anchoring; it’s also known as cognitive dissonance. There are other biases that we have, where we simply decide that this is how it is, and we assume it’s true. 

And you know, the thing I talk about a lot is with COVID, you know, there was a group of people, very loud people who are all about masks, right? And they were saying, you know, wearing masks is terrible, right? You’re going to, you know, do these things, you know, you’re going to get sick, etc. 

And of course, they forgot that doctors and nurses wear masks all day and have been doing so for decades, and they didn’t suffer any of these consequences that people had. But they made up reasons, right? I said irrational and impulsive; they will make up reasons to support their belief, which was an identity-based belief. So, and that’s not an unusual situation, right? We often make up reasons to justify our behavior because we want to see ourselves in a certain way, right? We are all heroes in our own stories.

Cosmos: 

No, for sure.

And speaking of heroes, Bill, I know you have a framework that you teach clients about hero leadership. Can you tell me a little bit more about how that works?

Bill Flynn: Sure, sure. Good segue, by the way. And I didn’t do that on purpose, and good for you. Yeah. What I found is that, especially in the West, we have been conditioned to believe that heroism is the right thing. We get rewarded all the time, right? 

In school, having the answer, the person who has the answer is rewarded, not the person who asks a really great question. Actually, many teachers don’t like that. They’ll say, You know, what are you doing? You know, this is about answers. In our jobs, right? The reason we get promoted to be a leader is because we’re really good at something. We probably make great decisions, we solve problems, you know, whatever those things are. 

So, you reach a position where you’re now in charge of other people, and all the things you were taught and rewarded for now work against you. Your job isn’t to have the answer anymore, because that doesn’t scale, right? Imagine that now you’re leading a team, and then you get promoted. Now you’re leading teams of teams. And how does that work? You know, now you have dozens of people relying on you to come up with the answer. You know, you’ll never sleep again. 

Also, we’re in a world that is there’s a, there’s a, an acronym, called, or these initials called bani B A N I, which says our world we’re in is brittle, anxious, nonlinear, and incomprehensible. And it isn’t; it’s a third iteration of this sort of process. The one before it was called VUCA, which stands for volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. I came out of the other two. This world we’re in isn’t predictable, and it’s moving incredibly fast, right? You have generative AI, technology, and all these things going on. 

As a leader, you can’t, so there’s no way you’re going to have all the answers. What you need to do is create an environment that allows your team to see the weak signals ahead of time and then adjust quickly when they occur. And the most, the most, a dramatic example that I can say, I don’t know, I don’t know where your leaders are from, but we had a, we had a bank here called Silicon Valley bank, and basically it was the startup bank. 

Most startups had a relationship with Silicon Valley Bank, and they experienced significant growth over the course of 40 years. They grew like crazy. They were, you know, tens of billions in size, and the leader of it used what they normally did, which was the reason that everyone loved them, because they were transparent. They would always say, What’s going on? You know, so you, you, they weren’t like other banks that sort of, they felt they weren’t working with them, and they were hiding things, etc. 

And something was going on in the business; the CEO decided he would tell people, ‘Here’s what happened, here’s what we’re doing to correct it.’ I just want you to know it’ll probably be a week or two before it sorts itself out. And then Peter Thiel, a relatively well-known person in Silicon Valley, said, “These guys don’t know what they’re doing.” He has a huge following. He was at PayPal and other places. So he saw a lot of people, and he said, I’m taking my money out. All of you should, too. Within 24 hours, $42 billion was withdrawn from Silicon Valley Bank, and it subsequently collapsed.

Cosmos: 

Wow. Wow.

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah. And by the way, I am dating a woman who works for one of the leaders of Silicon Valley Bank. So I got to watch the thing in real time. We were on vacation in Mexico when this happened. 

So I got to watch what was happening in real time, listening to her on the phone. She was on the phone every day, even though we were on vacation. She had to be pulled into these meetings. It was amazing. And they never recovered. And by the way, they weren’t; they were a perfectly healthy bank. They made one mistake that they could have easily fixed. 

But because of the situation that we’re in, where people can now just get on their phone and remove all their money in seconds, you know, they are, they went into receivership and now they’re part of a different bank altogether. And you know, they’re, they’re, it’s a completely different model. And the old Silicon Valley bank is no longer.

Cosmos: 

No, I found it interesting how Peter Thiel just said, ‘Hey, everybody, get out.’ And then everybody just listened to him. And then all of that happened.

Bill Flynn: Exactly. And that’s sort of brittle. Right, Brittle and anxious. Right. So he combined the brittle and anxious, and he got anxious, and he said, ‘No, these guys, you know, I don’t want to lose my money.’ Because he had, I assume, millions, if not billions of dollars in a Silicon Valley bank himself, and he just said, You know, get out. Put your money somewhere else. 

And it’s ironic, which is particularly ironic because the banking industry isn’t generally regarded as a stellar industry. So where are you going to put your money next? Anyway, so it’s a cautionary tale. And I think that is, that is, that is becoming more and more the rule. I have clients who just. Things happen, right? 

And, they’re like, what happened? And it was a surprise. And you know, even if they were looking for it, they didn’t see it. And then they aren’t yet able to pivot and adjust quickly. So it affects them, and some of them go out of business. You know, COVID was one. I would like to say that there have been three significant economic events in the last 21 years. 25 years. You know, we had nine in 2001, then 11 in 2008, and then Covid. Right. Every six to eight years, something unexpected happens. 

Therefore, you must be prepared for the unexpected. Right. And so, set yourself up, and, back to financial matters, you need to have enough money in the bank to weather several months without any clients, just in case. And those that do that, those that plan, are well-positioned to take advantage of it when it ends. Right. Many businesses went out of business in 2008, while others thrived because they had the cash and the wherewithal to acquire distressed businesses at a low cost and boost their own operations. So.

Cosmos: 

Sure, Bill.

So, Bill, I know on another note, I also know you wrote a book, Further and Further Faster. Can you tell me in the audience a little bit more about that, the premise of what made you write that?

Bill Flynn: 

Yeah, sure. I have written seven books. My first one was about five years ago. And written is not the right word. I don’t like to write. I don’t think I’m a very good writer. I have someone else write. And so Susan was the person who wrote my book. And we talked for about 15 or 18 hours. And some of the writing is mine. I would say 20 to 30% of the words are mine, but all of the thoughts are mine. 

So basically, I’m a fan of the Pareto principle, which is some. It is known as the 8020 rule. Most people know it as the 8020 rule. It’s also called the Law of the Vital Few. So, the title is ‘Called Further Faster.’ The vital few steps that take the guesswork out of growth. And so, what I said is that I have hundreds of exercises that I can do with my clients on various topics, ranging from strategy and execution to finance, people, feedback, and team dynamics. 

However, what I’ve learned is that there are just a few things that companies that are truly great and remain so over a long period of time do. And they do the same few things really well, which is teams. You have an operating system; you treat cash as your primary financial metric, not revenue or profit. And if you keep those three things in mind, then you’re much more likely to have success than if you do anything else, right? 

That’s 80, 80% of the time. Those companies that excel are really great at creating and developing teams and teams of teams within the organization. They have a specific operating system that they use within the business. It can be an off-the-shelf solution, such as EOS, or scaling up, or any other approach—value builder. 

There are approximately 20 to 30 different operating systems available, or you can create your own. I don’t think it really matters, but you have to say, you know, your business is basically one big system and it’s made up of subsystems. And then there’s cash, right? Is cash. And you probably know that this is reflected in your profit and loss statement (P&L) and your balance sheet. Cash is the only thing that will not lie to you, right? You can generate revenue, make a profit, move money around, and become more profitable, or do whatever you need to do. But you either have cash or you don’t. And if you want to scale your business, you must invest in it. And it’s better in my opinion to use your own money than to borrow money. 

You know, it’s not bad to borrow money, but if you can do it, if you can have a customer-funded business, it’s a much better business than one where you’re having a third party, especially if you’re having an investor. I enjoy talking to people all the time. You can visit a bank or any other financial institution to obtain money and credit, including lines of credit. That’s one thing. 

But if you go to an investor, then you’ve decided to sell your company, right? And I say you have to know that. And within five to eight years, they expect to receive their money back. And then some understand that, where banks, you know, they might control some of what you do. If you find yourself in situations, but you know you are mostly autonomous. However, you must understand that when you want to build. So, when I work with my clients, we follow a three-year rolling planning process, right? 

And I say, look, we’re going through a three-year planning process, but as I’ve mentioned here, at any point in time, if something changes, we need to revisit it, right? However, if nothing happens, then we’ll just continue. And then I say, ‘Okay, you’ve got your three-year planning process, which is here are the things that we think will make us different, unique, have our strategy win, and have us be a solid business.’ How much will that cost? I said, Great, now let’s build a financial plan. How many customers do you need at what margin, and so on? To support that? And then we break it down into 36 months. 

And then we say, okay, you know, you got revenue, cash, profit, people, and widgets, right? Those widgets are the items you need to sell. And I said, ‘Let’s track it.’ And then, when things start to go awry, we have to examine and make adjustments, and so on. So we’re ahead of the situation. I said, ‘I don’t care how much revenue you have; you could actually stay at the same amount of revenue and be a much healthier business because you’re building more profit and more cash for the business.’ 

So those are the three things. Teams, an operating system, and cash are your primary financial metrics. That’s basically what the book is about. My other books are also noteworthy. Further Faster is essentially a compilation of what I’ve learned. There’s nothing new in what I. In my opinion, there is no thought leadership. That’s just my perspective on things. 

And the only reason I wrote the book is that many people told me I should write a book. They said, Look, the way you think about things, the way your brain works, the way you explain stuff, is very different from what I’ve heard from anyone else or ever read. All right, you know, and I had to save enough money to pay Susan and the team to do it. It was very expensive. 

But now I’m writing again because AI is basically Susan for me, right? I can say here’s my thinking. And so, my next series of books is really about thought leadership, right? I’m taking Peter Drucker, and I’m expanding on Peter Drucker. I’m taking Porter, who’s the strategy guy, and I’m expanding on Porter; I’m doing a lot more things with teams, Amy Edmondson, and sort of expanding on that. 

So I’m excited about these next few books over the next few years. I’m not sure if anyone else will be excited about them, but I am.

Cosmos: 

No, I mean, I would definitely recommend my audience to look at your book further and faster because this is what they need to see, you know? And, Bill, how would the audience connect with you and learn more about you and what you do? And if somebody wants coaching from you, how would they go about doing so?

Bill Flynn:

Sure. Everything’s on my website. It’s called https://catalystgrowthadvisors.com. All my contact information is there. My book is there. You can download my book for free in PDF format if you’d like, or you can purchase it on Amazon or Audible. I make three or four bucks every time. 

You’re welcome to sign up if you’d like and discuss things with me. I also write, so I write to learn. Over the last decade, I’ve written 200 articles. Actually, my newsletter, which I love, is. And I love that this happens, as I have an open rate of over 50% on my newsletter. I don’t have many. I don’t have a lot of readers, around 1,200 to 1,300, but half of them actually open it, which is three times the average. 

Whatever I’m doing, however I’m writing for myself, is also resonating with others. They’re always really short. There’s always something to do. I’m here to help people, and I want to create a DIY newsletter. You don’t need to hire me if you don’t want to. You can download my book. Suppose you do the things in my book. You don’t need to hire me. I have exercises that you can do. I’ve explained how to run the exercises. Suppose I’m not in the room. So that’s my goal. Right? My goal is to help as many people as I can while I’m still able to do so.

Cosmos: 

That is amazing, Bill, and I really appreciate everything that you’re doing, and I’m really glad that you took the time to come on this podcast and share your knowledge about human psychology and how it applies to marketing and sales, because a lot of people need to know this if they want to succeed in what they do. 

And I definitely hope that you take the time to come back at a later time.

Bill Flynn: 

I would love to. This was fun. You’re. You’re a very good interviewer. Thank you for having me.

Cosmos: 

Thank you, Bill. And I want to conclude this episode by letting my fellow extraordinary Americans know that, hey, look, there’s an extraordinary within every one of us, and it’s our duty to awaken it and unleash it. Until next time. Bye for now.