Welcome back to the show, my fellow extraordinary Americans. Today’s guest is Chirene Hughes. Chirene hails from a small town in South Africa and is the founder and principal of two Red Crows brand storytelling agencies. 

In any given month, they write 100,000 words geared toward marketing. They write strategic wording for e-mail marketing and lead nurturing, social media, SEO articles, social selling, and stories that drive sales. Chirene understands how words and storytelling can increase business revenues. I’m certainly glad she’s on this show. Chirene, are you there?

Hi, yes, here I am.

Chirene, thank you so much for taking the time to do this show with me. I appreciate it.

No, it’s all my pleasure.

So, Chirene, I know. I know. You’re the founder of this agency. Can you tell me more about yourself, your background, and how you started?

Right. We started; you know when life throws your curveball life through three curveballs. I was in a small town and living close to my parents, and they very selfishly died. OK. So, then I had a child who was in. He was almost a teenager, and I took him out of school. That’s a long story. I took him out of school, and then the agency I worked for as a copywriter closed down. 

So, the only thing I could do then was move closer to family here in Meisner and start my own thing.

Wow, I’m sorry to hear that your parents died at such a young age. You still came out strong, and then you came out of that on top and started your agency. Shireen, like what is?

Listen, I’m not going to say … sorry … I’m not going to say that I came out on top. You know, we’re trying to start a business with no funding. When you are emotionally drained because you’ve lost the people that you love, I don’t know if you’re an orphan, but it doesn’t matter what age you are when you become an orphan; it is… Suddenly, there’s no backstop, and there you are as an adult already being an adult for many years, but suddenly there you are as an adult without, you know, it’s very emotional. So, I don’t think I can. I was at the top and started at the bottom.

No, I know I understand the tree. What is your motivational factor? Fight through these dark times and then go through your vision of ultimately starting your agency.

OK, it’s the mother it needs just because I had to. I had a child to feed. Then, I had to do something, and there was no opportunity for jobs in the town that I was in. They are what Armstrong, at all words as a copywriter. There are no jobs here. 

It was a long time ago, in 2012. And so, I just got on the Internet, which is less sophisticated than it is. Now, I joined the platform and then did the revolting jobs. You know, the one at rock bottom prices writes an article for, I don’t know, even $3. And then work up from there.

Well, Chirene, what is one of the greatest lessons you learned while storytelling for different companies and writing copyright articles?

Storytelling differs from copywriting, and article storytelling is about finding the heart. Nowadays, many companies have a vision and a mission, but that’s not the heart.

You have to go beyond that because a lot of those are generic. Everybody says they’re the best at what they do, and they want to have integrity, and they want to be. It’s very generic. 

So you have to go behind that and find out what the heart is, the story that everybody in the business can get behind, and what all the marketing can be about. Then, all the people they interact with can tell that story to other people.

You bring up an amazing point because one of the things that many businesses in America, especially those focused on, is the products and the services part, but they have yet to talk about; they never focused that much on the narrative or the story behind the product service and how important it is to create a brand and ultimately sell their products cause what many people need to realize is that it’s not about just the product or service you have.

It’s the story behind it and the story of the founder, where they came from, what theirs is, and what led up to the moments of it like people want to hear our narratives. And like a story behind this thing. 

And so, this is where this becomes extremely important, you know.

Sometimes, we spend too much effort on the founders’ stories, so people don’t have a big attention span right now. It’s become like that because of our society. Yeah. 

So, what works well? It’s a story about the product. Once people are using the product, they become loyal to it. You introduce the back story, and then you get their loyalty, and they become part of the family or the fandom.

So, let’s say somebody wants to start a business with a product or service, and you have to advise them on how to write the story behind it. It could be anything. They needed to understand the importance of storytelling regarding brands. What would you advise them on? How to sell their product.

The person often has to do the business owner must be persuaded that a story is the best way to go, which is challenging. It’s better when somebody has knocked their head and realized that a story is a wonderful way to go because they’re then educated and willing to take the risk of storytelling. Much introspection goes into the storytelling, and you have to open your heart to somebody like me so I can get to the kernel of the matter. It is easy to do it for yourself if you are that way. You’re a storyteller, and writing it for yourself is difficult. You’re too close. 

So, just letting somebody in to see that can be quite nerve-wracking for people who haven’t done that before.

Yeah, it’s a lot right because you’re putting yourself out there, and many people wouldn’t want to put themselves out there. But at the same time, one of the things I learned over the years is that it’s the, it’s the, it’s your story and your background that people attach themselves to, right, because they hear they hear about. This thing, and then they can take something from that story about them, and that’s how they get attached to it all.

Interesting. You said that because I’m not fond of speaking to large groups of people, so I said that to somebody yesterday. United talk, I think it was challenging for you, she said. Sometimes it is, but on that, it’s not. This one wasn’t difficult because she stood up there. She reminded herself of the thought that came to her and reminded herself that she was giving a gift. Those people were there to receive the gift, so there was no longer about herself. It was about the gift she was giving. You could do the same thing with storytelling once you combine the story and the narrative you want to tell. Then it’s easy to give it away.

Yeah, like, well, one of the things I wanted to share with you. I had a monster that once told me about the importance of narrative and storytelling, right? 

So, he said many talented artists know how to paint and who. Know how to. Do drawings, and there are many wines out there, and they just sell for like $10 or $20.00, right? But if you put up with this, you could have somebody that doesn’t have as good of. It was an art, but they put a story behind it, and it was one of the greatest revelations I’ve ever had because you have, but you have these people selling their art for $10 or $20, and then there are $10 there. There are $50 and $100 wines; some wine bottles sell for over $1000. And then there’s art that sells for half a million or $1 million. 

I asked this mentor what made this thing go for half a million or $1 million, or even this art goes for so much, right? And these wine bottles sell for all this much, whereas this one, which is the same quality, just sold for this. It is all about the narrative and the story behind it. 

And I was like, wait, what? It’s like telling a story about how the wine bottle or the art came. That changes the entire thing. There’s a movie about it called Big Guys Were Right. In it, this woman sells art and everything, but she is the artist who did all that. Then, her husband knows how to sell it with the story. 

And they just made millions of dollars out of it. I wanted to share it because it was my biggest revelation about how important words, storytelling, and narrative are to the same product. After all, you could have the same thing. You could have people of much better quality. Well, then you and they will not do the same, as they will not sell for as much.

It’s the perception of value. So, if people perceive the value of it, they are willing to pay more, even if it’s the same thing. It depends on the packaging and where on the shelf it is. It depends on whether it’s limited availability, but as you say, it is the story behind it. 

So, if you can ignite a person’s imagination about the product, their feeling of loyalty, or their hunger to have the same thing that your story is promising, that will UPS the perception of value. People will pay much more for something they are emotionally connected with, and that’s what storytelling does.

Chirene, you hit the nail right on the head. One of the reasons I want to have you on the show is that I want the audience to know how storytelling and branding can increase the product’s value. After all, it’s all about perceived value. It’s how people perceive your product, and then there are two different modes of thought, right? Some business people use a product-oriented approach. It’s all about the quality of the product the product sells for itself. And then others use the market-oriented approach, and you, it’s all about the perception of the product.

But then there are the people who realize it’s all about quality and branding. You combine the two, and that’s what creates everything. But I need to find out what you think about it.

Well, think about it. It’s a varying marketplace, and it isn’t quiet. So, you’ve got to get attention in the 1st place, and I can tell you a story about to read quotes for that. Initially, I had a partner in the business. We started it together, and you have always been. If you’ve ever tried to name a company, you will know how difficult it is. We had one criterion that we wanted it to have read in the night. 

So, we went through lists and lists. Now you have the problem of finding a name that suits both of you. Buying a domain means many things are already gone, and you’ve got to register it; so many things are gone there, too. So, we narrowed it down; it took us ages and ages, but we narrowed it down to two names.

Now, we want to test our people. We’re very excited. So, the closest people were teenage boys in the kitchen. And you know how teenage boys the fridge and pizza are: The fridge closes, and there’s just noise and absolute chaos.

So, we walk in there, and we say. And have your attention, which is like, yeah, maybe that they carry on with what they do, but you know, that’s about as much attention as you’ll get. So, we say, OK, we’ve got a name for the business, and they are OK, what? So, we say, the Suzy Crimson Agency. Silence. And the youngest one, who must have been 11, pipes up. What are you guys? **** stars now?

Whoa.

It’s young to think we decided right then and there that we take the next name on the disk, just whatever it is, and that is to read the quote. Now, I tell you the story because I tell it often, and people remember it then because it’s an unusual name first, but it’s got a story behind it, so they always remember the story. And after I’ve been at a conference or a workshop, people speak about it. Is there an entry to your conversation?

I see no. It is very interesting how it came into being. And yeah, I can. I can see how it’ll affect perception and sharing. There’s one question we’re going to ask you. In today’s world, the intern has become a place where there are so many. It’s so difficult for people to look at your product that you need a good headline before they read its story.

So, what is your opinion on how to get people to like and look at the like to get enough attention on your story long enough? There are so many other people out there.

Listen, are you up against the SEO debate? You know, where is your traffic coming from in the 1st place? 

So, let’s imagine traffic hits your site. The story must be immediately available in the Hero banner. The look and feel depend on the person you’re talking to—the most important thing. Who is your audience? Knowing who’s visiting will help you decide what type of welcome mat to put out.

No, Chirene. What you see is true. So, one of the things that we have to understand is the avatar. Like, who are we? Basically, who is our target audience? Like many business loans, many people think this seems like common knowledge. However, many business owners need help understanding their target audience because they’re so invested and attached to them. Product or service? But without knowing that.

You know what I find? Are those people? If I ask them, who’s your target audience? They say, well, everybody. No, that’s not right. You have to get it right down to the exact person in your imagination who would be sitting there and reading your story or being or using your product, and it doesn’t have to be just one person. You’ll then segment your products into your marketing. Into several. Nieces, depending on the type of people.

 So, for example, you might have teenagers and old gentlemen, two different things. You can give them a different story. They won’t even hear it. You’ve got to get even. If you’ve packaged it differently, the story behind it must also be different.

So you have to tune in. 

You must know your target audience, tune in to what they’re looking for and want, and craft a story accordingly. Yeah, I know. It seems like common sense, but many people need to do that. But it’s like the difference between an increase or a massive increase in sales. 

A normality, you know. So, what was your biggest challenge while creating and running your agency? What is business owners’ biggest challenge, and how should they overcome it, especially regarding storytelling?

It’s a difficult question. If you start with nothing, start from zero, and then walk each part of the business yourself until you get big enough to get assistance in different parts.

So, for example, I started as the sole copywriter, plus the. The lead generator plus the salesperson plus the admin, so. But as it. Getting to that stage where you’ve got enough business is challenging as it gets more. To need somebody else, but at the same time, you don’t have enough to pay someone else, so you got to take the risk there of how you’re going to manage that, how you’re going to scale that at the same time, it’s something like what we do. It is challenging to find people who can tell a story. 

Storytelling starts with listening. If you can hear the story behind it, you’ve got to be quiet enough to hear the story behind what the person or the business owner AM is saying. So, finding quiet people who absorb and can give it back is challenging.

I say so. What are you saying? Is true? Like very few people can tell like how to tell a story. But that makes me ask a question. Sharing, like, what is the difference between your perceptions? What is the difference between a good story and a bad story? 

What are the hallmarks, traits, or requirements? When you read a story, you think, OK, this is a good story. And then you read this story and think, OK, this doesn’t work.

All right, it’s simple. The simpler, the better. If you can tell that same story to a child, adult, cat, or anyone else, and it’s simple to understand, then you’ve hit the nail on the head.

I see.

And that can take several iterations, but be reassured. You’ll start with 100,000 words. Exaggeration. You’ll start big training, and as the years go by, you’ll get it down to what you want as your business changes. 

But feel free to start with a minimally viable product because it will grow with you. What we try to do when we do stories for people is to get down to the story and to get down to who they are now. No. But with enough stuff in it, it is self-fulfilling. It grows with him, and the narrative art goes with them. 

So, it encompasses a vision and where they are at this.

I see. No. What you’re saying about vision is right. And there was something else I wanted to ask on top of that, right? 

So, many people talk about the hero’s journey, right? For example, like Lord of the Rings, they have Luke Skywalker or Frodo when discussing Star Wars and the OR. For example, they go on this journey, and then there’s a specific sequence of steps where the person is reluctant to go. But then the mentor comes in. Drags him onto the journey. He goes through trials and tribulations, and then basically, ultimately, he overcomes the villain, realizes all these lessons, and returns to his native thing and teaches it.

So, my question is, what is your opinion on the hero’s journey archetype? When it comes to like storytelling and like it, are there other archetypes out there that are as successful to it?

Only some people want to be here. Some people are more comfortable being the ordinary person and being the ordinary product they use daily. It’s not a sexy product; it’s toilet paper. The world it is, everybody needs it. 

They don’t have to be flash. Some people are more comfortable there. Their brand is made for that, and they hear a story that only applies sometimes. We don’t go with the hero story. Because it’s more marketing and storytelling for the brand, storytelling is more of a marketing tool than an actual emotional story or person. You can enter promote files for the product, but we take that one step back and say we’ll use it. It’s a theory of constraints idea we’ll use. 9 layers of biting. Or the nine layers of resistance. 

So, when a person first comes to a product, it’s invisible to them. They’ve never seen it; they don’t care. The next step is to go through these nine resistance areas from Earth. 

So, it exists. Why is it good for me? Through to. OK, I’ve seen that there are. This is the kind of product I want. So let me weigh up which one. And between, let me get to you. Is this one better than that one? You weigh the pros and cons of the product. So, there’s a specific resistance to taking the next step in each step. And that’s what we—rolled into the storytelling.

Well, it’s really interesting that you said there are nine layers of resistance because most people don’t know about that. Can you elaborate a little bit more about that? After the invisible part, just so the audience can have a little idea of what it is.

OK, so say There’s a product you need to learn about. OK, you don’t even need it.

When you come across it somewhere, you think, OK, Now I know that product exists, but so what? So that’s the first resistance. Now you’ve got to tell people that this product could be useful.

So, they get to the story, which takes them to the point where they say, Oh, right. Well, you know, maybe I’ll use it. It’ll be useful to me. Then they get to the. The. But why should I use it? Why should I do any more investigation? Then, you start to introduce the benefits of the product. Well then. I think, and then they think, OK, well, that’s a good product, but why should I use this particular product, this particular brand? Then you take them through the comparisons of different brands, why yours is best, and why, and tell it in the story. 

And then after that, they want to know, OK, so that looks good. But can I trust this product if I buy it? Will there be if the after-sales service is there? What is behind the support of the product, and what’s in it for me? And then you’ve got to work with that to tell them we’re there for you. 

You go all the way up until you get to the psychological level, where people just say, uh, not for me because of the risk. So then you’ve got to mitigate the risk; you’ve got to explain why they should spend all this money on your product.

Wow, Chirene, you just blew my mind over here because you understand the buyer’s psychology. At the same time, you’re doing it within the context of a story, but it’s going into the subconscious realms of the process of how this is, like, something that. People trying to sell their product or business online should know the cause. Yeah, I didn’t even know about the different layers on that level.

It’s great if you’re a negotiator. So, if you’re nurturing sales, you know if you’re nurturing customers. You can work through those layers even if you’re working with kids and trying to persuade them to do something.

I see. Were there any books or anything that you read that helped you get to this point where you understood how to write the stories? Let’s say somebody wanted to go into your industry, and they wanted to know, OK, what do I have to learn to get a basic understanding of storytelling? How would you advise them on what books to read or what processes to take? Or what steps do you take?

OK, don’t hate me, but just start. I haven’t got any education in it at all. So, I always knew that I wanted to write. And I’m a storyteller. And so. It grew from there. 

So I say to people then. Find somebody who can help you. You can talk to me about it. Read more about anything to understand how a story works and enter the industry. Become a copywriter, and from there, learn.

Just try and look inside yourself. I often say that people put education in the way. So. And it finds something that inspires you. And let that passion drive you. But you don’t have to look at books and find how somebody else has done it. I’m not saying that that’s not valuable. I’m on Google all the time. When I started, I had to write some speeches and needed a cooking clue about how to do that. And I had to look at it. I did some research but was confident I was good with words. 

So, give the inspiration, tap into that, and try.

1. No, I mean, you’re right. You have to take action first. Like what you’re saying, you jump into the pool and figure out how to swim. Yeah, that’s many people. They just want to put the toe in first and see if the water is cold or lukewarm. And then they slowly get in. But I like your approach. Like it, it makes sense, you know.

But the caveat is that with brand storytelling, like any marketing, you’re writing it for the client. The client may hate what you do. Don’t be disheartened because you liked what that was and that. Then, we have to rewrite it for the client as the client wants. That’s just how it happens.

I see. So, another thing I wanted to ask is, what is one thing you like? Let’s say you could go back in time and talk to your teenage self with all the wisdom and knowledge you have right now. What? What advice would you give the teenage version of yourself right now, knowing everything you’ve gone through over your life?

I’d say don’t be frightened. Make mistakes. It’s difficult to say this because the world has changed so much, and the opportunities that existed back then are not the same now. And it was so much slower. But I would say yeah, just. Speak to the right. People just get out there and be seen.

No. Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I do this podcast: many people want to be financially free but are frightened and afraid of the risks of doing business.

 They only do it once they almost have them. There’s a half to the situation, but that’s the only way we can attain it. Like true freedom or like, be the like, be able to influence our own choices, cause that’s ultimately like you would want to be the master of your faith. And, like, this is the way to do that.

 So, not being afraid and taking those chances are. Are part of that.

Interestingly, I do not like being in a box. And I know this because I always wear flat shoes so that I can run, but I have yet to run in them. I don’t know, 20 years, still wear flat shoes.

That is awesome. Can you tell me in the audience a little bit more about the premise of how your agency started? I know you told a little about it, but could you elaborate so the audience can better understand your agency?

Because we started directly as. Online based. It started off being a bit anonymous, so you have to work hard to be able to do it. Good connection with people over Zoom. We have been through many iterations. What usually happens for us is that it’s a cycle. We go, expand, and get many people, and then we have to step back because of the nature of. Are writers, and you may not know this. They disappear. They work and work, and they give everything. 

And then, one day, they’re gone. Initially, that was disconcerting, but it’s just their nature. They go along and then suddenly walk about, and they’ll return in about a year, six months, or two weeks. You never know how long it will take them to recharge themselves.

So, we had to work out how to feel when that happens, and our editor is brilliant at that. You have other writers in the wings, so they’re ready to pick up where that writer has dropped the ball. Every client is different. 

So, you have to have a team working on a particular client. That is challenging when you need help finding the right talent. On top of this, if you’re growing a business, you want to do something other than the work yourself and must step back. You have to be the architect; it is challenging to do both architecture and the work and find the talent. 

So, the first thing that you. You are that you find somebody who doesn’t have to be as good as you at things that you just have to be able to do. They must be able to jump in and take some of the burdens away from you, and as you go along, you’ll find people to give another little bit of the burden away to. And even if they are part-time Internet users, it’s great for that. You can get freelancers; they only do 2 hours a week, or they do 30 minutes a day. That will save your sanity, and you can put all that time into your business and growth.

No, totally. The goal is to ultimately not micromanage everything. Still, it’s just so difficult at the beginning when you have limited funds. Then you have to figure out the transition process to be like the person who’s the architect who sees everything, whereas in the beginning, you have to micromanage. But it’s a difficult transition for many people, you know.

We did this because you’re writing so many articles, and we’ll get back to the fact that AI is taking that work away from us. We need a huge workforce because it takes a while to write an article and get into it for many reasons. 

So, it’s the rock-bottom prices. It’s an embarrassing amount that you couldn’t pay people, but we were the type of people that we worked with then. Were pensioners who needed something to do? Students who needed some income while studying were moms in the afternoons when they were sitting in the car waiting for their kids. And what we did was mentor them through it. 

So, our goal is that they’ll get sick of this work once they have learned how to do SEO, write for a particular niche, and all the things you need to take the next step and get a better-paying job. So now.

You can have graduated on your CV, and it’s useful to you. So that was the only option. We could also give them our value to make up for and exceed what they would ordinarily be paid, a good way, a superior wage.

That is also true. Yeah, that is.

So, if you don’t have the money, look for something else or value you can exchange for the work.

You bring up a good point because, yeah, like, it’s not just monetary value. Like you can give your education your opportunity, uh, you need knowledge of and expertise, and you can exchange a certain number of hours for that because not everybody will have all those resources at the beginning. 

You’re right; it is a good strategy for starting your business. So, share. How can our audience connect with you and learn more about you, your agency, and your work?

And they should just reach out and send me an e-mail.

1. What would be that e-mail that they can reach out to you on?
2. It’s two escrows. And you spell Chirene CHIRENE. There’s a story behind that as well.
3. Uh, would you would? Do you want to share that story?

We will tell you the story so that you remember how to spell it. I was born in the 1960s, and my mom’s name was Irene, and my father’s name was Chris. So, they just spelled it together, and that made Chirene CHIRENE.

Wow, that that is awesome. You just gave me an understanding of storytelling right over there. Yeah, that’s that. That is interesting.

 Sure, I’m grateful and glad that you took the time to do this podcast with me and share your understanding of storytelling and its application to brand and business because what you just shared with us is so important that most people don’t realize it is a narrative and the storytelling behind your product service that dramatically increased sales. And we, as business owners, have made an effort to understand how that is done. 

And so I appreciate that. You took the time.

You’re welcome. And one last thing: If people contact me, sometimes it’s best to just talk to someone and find out what storytelling is about, and I’m happy to do that. Just email me, and I’ll send you my calendar, and we can chat.

That is awesome for you. Thank you so much. I certainly want you to come back to this show later. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom.

Oh, that would be fun. Thank you.

And I want to conclude this episode by letting my fellow extraordinary Americans know that, hey, look, there’s an extraordinary within every one of us. We must awaken it and unleash it until next time. Bye for now.