Welcome to Extraordinary America. Hello, welcome back to the show my fellow Extraordinary Americans for today’s episode, we have Nathaniel Holzmann . 

Nathaniel Halzmann is an entrepreneur, investor and a software developer. He’s a husband and father of seven children. He has had a 20-plus-year career in the software industry. In 2004, he started working as a software support representative as part of his support efforts, he was working with developers to fix the software they wrote which launched him into a career helping companies and individuals build great software products, both as a product and product manager. His software development experiences span all organization types, including privately owned venture capital, private equity, and government organizations. 

Over 10 years ago, Nathaniel was introduced to low code as an alternative to traditional software development. That technology has continued developing and is now how companies and individuals can build highly customized software that previously would have cost hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars to develop for pennies on the dollar. 

Today, as the CEO of Locode Rd. Nathaniel has the privilege. Of leading an amazing team of People from around the world. They build and support local at-no-code software applications for hundreds of companies and thousands of end users. 

Nathaniel is what I would consider an extraordinary American because he is managing to do business while having a family of seven children, and I am excited to have him for our show. Nathaniel, are you there? 

Hey, cosmos.

Hey Nathaniel. It is an honor to have you been to the show. How are you doing? 

I’m doing great. Thank you. I’m glad to Be here. It’s a privilege. 

To be here. So, Nathaniel, you’re an entrepreneur. You’re an investor and a software developer. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself, your background, and how you got started? 

So, you know, as you mentioned in the intro, I started off doing technical Support and worked my way through the tech support world and ended up getting put in charge, being put in charge of the tech support department. And then running operations for the company as well. 

So, operations, information technology, and technical support were all parts of the Hasley war, and that over the years morphed into working with the developers on fixing the bugs that the people were calling about. That then morphed into project management, and product management.

That’s what I want to say product management, project management, 20 plus years of that. And now we’re doing software development ourselves, leveraging no-code and low-code solutions. 

That’s awesome. OK. So 20-plus years you have been doing software development. What has been your strategic goal and vision when it comes to software and its application companies and your personal life? 

Strategic and personal… Wow, that’s that.

I mean, just what? What has been, your life, and your career goal on a strategic level regarding your vision and goals, and objectives over the 20-plus years? 

Thank you, Cosmos, for having me, it’s been trying to raise my family. Right. It’s been something that’s been a challenge, you know. There’s been a lot going on, you know, seven kids are an awful lot and so… I want to say the challenge for us has been just Living right for many, many years, but at this point, we want to pass that forward. We want to help other people experience the same blessings and benefits that we have through low-code technologies and no-code technologies, you don’t need to be a software developer anymore to be a pro Grammar.

And so just you’ve got a lot of people who build websites using WordPress and other technologies, but they don’t know how to write code, or they know how to write some code, we can do that for people around the world today, and teach them how to write code. Or rather, build software without having to write code. Does that make sense? 

That’s no. Yeah, totally. I mean, I know that you have a family, and you’re 7 kids. And it’s really, I know for most of my audience, for most Americans in general, it’s really hard to do a business while raising a family at the same time. It’s one of the hardest things in the world to do. How did you manage to do all that? 

If you could enlighten us on that because that’s Something that most because there’s a lot of. People who have families, you know? they’re raising kids. Want to. Become financially free. They want to start a business, but they’re afraid of finance. Failure or they’ll start a business and then they’ll go into financial ruin, and they have to know what is going to happen to the family, you know?

Yep, so I was very blessed because a lot of what we did going at the beginning was working full time or working on contract. And then my wife, who again is not a programmer, was doing the actual work on the software and building the website for companies or not websites but billing software for companies. 

And then over the years that has grown to the point where we are now where both she and I are working full time for the company, but that that was a long slog, you know, that was a long, hard slog to get from, you know, being an employee at W2 employee to where we are today, which is both working within the company that we founded. 

So, what was that moment when you and your wife made that shift from working on a Job-like. A lot of programs, they’re doing this late on high-five fingers, low 6-figure jobs. Right. And they could be comfortable. 

Oh yeah.

And then what was that transition or that motivating factor that pushed you from doing that? Job to do a job so I want to start my own business and I’m going to do this no matter what. 

I think the big thing for us was the Drive because of two things: one, we knew that as long as we were working for other people. There is a ceiling, right? There’s a cap, both in terms of income and also in terms of influence, right? For me to be able to make a change in the world, I need to, I need to grow bigger. And that’s the big thing for us was the Desire to make a bigger impact in the world around us. And I think that’s what made us, you know, that’s what made us decide, OK, we’re it’s time to jump in and. I want to say with both feet into the world of software development and specifically LO-CODE and no code. 

I see. Usually, a lot of people like it, they realize that it’s kind of they have they want to, they want to do more, and they want to make an impact and everything. But they usually have this fear, and they have all these hurdles and these mental blocks and there’s a lot of mindset issues where they’re like, can I do this or not? Like, what would you tell somebody that? Have you been in doubt about where they have a family, and they want to start? They want to start a business, but they’re going to be afraid of doing it because they’re afraid of failure. 

Do it anyway. Honestly, the worst thing that can happen is you fail, but you learn from your failure. You learn from your mistakes; mistakes and you get up and try again. Right. I want to say do it anyway. 

But don’t do it without wisdom, make sure that you’ve got the right. Cushion make sure that you’ve got. You know you’re not going out and spending. I want to say don’t do it without a plan. Don’t do it without even a fall-back plan, right. For us, if everything went downward, I knew that I could still get a job. I know that my family’s still taking care of me. We have the financial wherewithal to be able to handle that. So don’t just jump but jump smart. 

A lot of people would wonder, like, what is considered wisdom in this case, right? what? Like, where is the where like, how do you smartly go about it? So, what? What, what do you talk about?

Yeah, that’s a great question. Cosmos I would have to say. It’s balancing right. For a while, you have to make sure that you know what your market is. You gotta figure it out. Out your product market fit. Before you start doing, you know, building a building, a company, building a business. 

I love the book, E-myth revisited By Michael Gerber if you haven’t read it, definitely check it out, because being good at something doesn’t mean you should be in business doing that, because the business skills that you need are very different than what you need to do to accomplish a goal; does that make? 

I don’t know if your listeners are familiar with it, but you know, if you’re a Baker and you’re good at baking cakes, it doesn’t mean you should open a bakery. Where I grew up, I knew someone who did that. She took out huge loans and went and borrowed all this brand-new baking equipment and within six months, she was closed. Being a Baker is very different from running a business, and the skill sets are very different. 

So, make sure you know what the skill sets are that you need. Managing money, cash flow, finances, sales, you know, all of these things, marketing, and then go and do that. But I know that being a business owner is very different from being a Baker. 

What was the biggest lesson you learned while you started your business and you’re trying to run the business and also run your family at the same time? 

Well, for me, I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned is that running a family and running a business are very, very similar. The only difference is you can’t fire your kids.

I mean, I don’t have kids myself, but I mean, I’m sure a lot. A lot of the listeners that have a family and have kids want to know, how similar is that way? 

How are they the same? How are they different? Yeah, absolutely. It’s a lot of fun. When you’re dealing with motivation, when you’re dealing with how to motivate people when you’re dealing with how to lead people, how to communicate effectively, all of the skills that you learn as a manager or a leader with an organization or as the head of an organization, those all translate 100% to working with your children as well. Learning how to effectively communicate and cast a vision to an organization is the same thing that you need to learn when you’re talking with Your kids about how to be a good person, what it means to live a good life, understanding and listening, listening skills, empathy, and skills. Those are skills that you need as a leader and as a father or a mother to two kids and a family.

I see. 

Yeah, that’s interesting. You mentioned that you can’t fire your kids and yeah. It’s true. You know, but you’re going to put, you’re going to put it that way? And some people would say that doing, like, having a family and like having a business there’s A huge contrast because In family, it’s filled with love and affection, whereas in business it’s all about the return on investment. It’s all about the profit, and it’s also about service and everything. But ultimately, it’s about the numbers. That’s what some.

I disagree with that. It’s all about people. Whether it’s people at home, your family, or people in the workplace.  I mean, if you go to the corporate world, it’s it that’s the vibe that you get, you know like. With the big companies that are doing, that in general. 

I disagree with that, too. I disagree. Because business is all about people, whether small or large, no. Different people have different ways of doing business, right? With different values, just different families have different ways of doing things within the family, some are more, you know, sports and achievement-focused, some are more relationship-focused, but that’s stuff that you bring as a person, as a parent to the table when you’re raising your kids. So, to say Business is all about the bottom line or all about numbers. I disagree with that concept. 

No, I mean. 

It’s important, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not the End all be all of a business. 

I’m glad you say that because in uh, from what a lot of people that I talk with in their car, in their corporate world experience, it’s a lot of the big business. It’s all about maximizing profits. 

But yes, we. Do need this mindset where it’s about people and it’s about empathy all there has to. Be a new way of looking at things all. So no, I do think your way of thinking is that it should be the actual way. But yes, from my point, from my personal experience, and other people’s experiences. When they went to the corporate world, they had a different experience, you know.

I’ll accept that Different people have different experiences, that’s for sure.

So, Nathaniel, what is the biggest challenge you face in your 20-plus years of career and how did you overcome it?

That’s, I think, the biggest challenge I’ve faced finding my niche, right? Finding my skill set, figuring out who I am, and what I’m doing right. When I started, I was doing tech support as I mentioned. And I got laid off from that position and it was like, OK, what do I do next?

Do I go out and do you know, do I do more Technical Support? Do I try to help run a business operationally? You know IT and computers and printers and all that kind of stuff. Or do I start working with software developers? But it took a long time to figure out who I am and who I was. I think it was the biggest challenge that I’ve faced in my career. And that’s something that took time and talking to people to figure out what my skill sets are? What are my passions? What am I interested in? 

Like did you have a kind of metamorphosis in terms of personality and an understanding of who you are? 

Oh, absolutely. That happens over time. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve changed over the years. The person I am, or I was ten years ago is not the person I am today. And it definitely won’t be the person I will be 10 years from now. You know, you change significantly every few years. And by the time you know, 10 years have gone by, you have no idea who you were ten years ago, a different person.

No. Yeah, I. Mean that’s one of the ones of the, I would say the permanent thing about life is impermanence, right? We change over, we change over some time and the only thing that you can see you can say is constant in life altogether is that it’s changing. It’s an irony. Right. But if you had to go back to the beginning of your career and give that person advice. From whom you are today what would that advice be? 

Don’t fear change. I know that’s … don’t fear change and be willing to try new things. I was not one to try new things. And it took me a long time to get over that. And you know, get out and be willing to be more of who I am. But it takes time to figure that out and a lot of self-introspection. 

I would say a lot of people have a fear of the unknown. When it’s coming to fear of change as they do have. The fear of the unknown. It’s one of the common themes that I notice, with people that they want to do something, or they want to get good at something, but they’re afraid of, like, the discomfort that comes with the app. So really, I think one of the things about doing business is that you have to be comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. 

That’s right. That’s right. That’s right, you. Got to be willing to try new things. Be comfortable, you know? I absolutely agree with that. Right. 

I mean, most people don’t want to get out of their comfort zone and they fear the unknown. So it’s interesting that you say that you should not fear change, but it’s easier said than done though. If you have to advise somebody that does fear it and wants to transition to that mind said, how do you advise them? 

If you’re afraid of change, start out trying something small. 

Do something different, whatever that looks it’s called… baby steps. Take a small step. Do something different. And even if you fail, learn from your mistakes. One of the core values that we have. At loco, growth is a growth mindset specifically. And the sub caption we have for that is where we are today is not where we’re going to be tomorrow. We will continuously learn and grow each day. We can be a little better than the day before. And we know that integrity and honesty are keys to growth. 

We know that Growth comes through execution, not deliberation. But I think the big thing is that we want our team members to learn. Does that growth come from also making mistakes? And learning from them. So being willing to execute, go out and do something without. Over-deliberating something is key. Knowing when to take the step that requires wisdom and wisdom comes through experience. So, if you were to ask me, I would say I have a growth mindset. Are you willing to step out? Even baby steps learn if you make a mistake and continue moving forward. 

Nathaniel, I love that you say that because I remember when I was an electrical engineer back in UT Austin, I had to take programming classes and we had to, like, do these programs and code these programs. In C++ and all of that, the fastest way to learn a language or get a program done, or get an A+, was for people to fail as quickly as possible they’re Just type some Code and they make a lot of mistakes and then they would be spending all the time debugging and the People that were Trying to be perfect and they had that perfectionist Tell where they didn’t want to create any bugs and they got to do it. they were the ones that suffered the most. 

But the people that were like, OK, I’m going to but throw myself out there and I’m going to. Just do it. And then OK, I’ll figure out the bugs. They were the ones that got the A+ in that, that thing. And so, I love that you say that you just can’t be afraid of making mistakes because that’s how you’re going to it, it’s a debugging thing. 

That’s exactly right. Yeah, I love it. I love it. So let me piggyback off that Cosmos. Uhm, and that is why I say, Business and family are the same things. Because you are talking about college, right? You’re talking about life when you were an electrical engineer and that’s exactly the skills that I need to teach my employees. And my kids. Right. Think about it. 

It’s the same pattern of skills. That’s going to help them grow, right? 

That’s right.

We can’t. We can’t grow until we make mistakes. It’s that debugging the process I mean. I don’t know if my audience would understand what debugging is, but it’s. 

We understand.

But it’s basically where you have a bunch of bugs, there’s a bunch of mistakes in code and then you have to fix the thing, but you have to first write some code. Just figure out the areas, but yeah. 

That’s right. That’s right.

I love that. It’s a common theme in entrepreneurship, you know. But on a different note, then Daniel, they say that America is the land of the free and the place where dreams are made. Do you agree or disagree with that?

America is one of the most unique countries in this world because of the legal protections that it affords. People try new things. Right, pretty much every other country. Yeah, some others have modeled American legal systems. I think America is unique in that you can start. With almost nothing and becoming a multi-billionaire, right? You can and the systems. The structures that we have in America allow for that in a way that many if not all other countries in the world don’t have.

Yeah, totally. I think it’s something that I realized when I came here just how many opportunities are there. But you have to be willing to put in. In the work and not just hard work, but Smart work as well. And then that’s right, the opportunities will be there. You just have to take it; you just have to take it. As they were. They go, you know, it’s not. It’s not as common in other countries. But it’s something that is here in this nation. But so, you know, as most Americans like, they want to realize the American dream. But a lot of what do you think is the biggest challenge that they would have when it comes to realizing their American dream? And how do you think they would overcome it? 

Realizing the American Dream is understanding what that dream is overcoming; it is a matter of willingness to step out and take risks. Right.

The debugging processes.

I think yeah, that debugging process we were just talking about now. At the same time, I can also understand why people might have a dream and they don’t want to, right? And sometimes those reasons are good and healthy. 

you’re a young couple. You’ve got a couple of kids. You can’t just go out and speak. Oh well, I’m. You know if you’re single, it’s different, right? You’ve only got one person. You got to take care of yourself. If you’re married, you’ve got kids. It’s a little different. 

So even then, though, there are so many people that achieve the American dream by working hard and smart and leveraging their skills and abilities and working with other people to accomplish great things. I look, you know again our core values, one of our other core values is togetherness at local growth and we say looking at working together is how we succeed. 

I want to say that is key, I believe to the American dream is, you know, if you go back to the West and the stories about how the West was founded in one it was all about people working together. You did have some people who were hermits, or they wanted to be on their own, but even then, they worked with other people. It was never a silo, you know, it was never all on my own.

No, I mean totally. Its community is one of the most helping each other and being in a community and then moving up forward an initiative, right? That’s an important part of realizing it. 

But you know, a lot of families right now, they’re struggling financially because of inflation combined with consumer debt, right? They bought a lot of things and now they have to do a job and everything but their dream… A lot of families had a dream of that white picket fence where they had their family and they had the house; they could afford the house now you notice the house and the cost. Housing has risen over the last 20-30 years. 

And then like, it’s just really hard for them financially to live up to that certain image. What would be your advice for families that want to attain this, the idea of The American dream? In the current state of just high inflation combined with having to pay off their debts, their mortgages, this and all that perspective, somebody that’s a family that has a family center and also a business owner. 

Yeah, I think the thing is that I encourage people to look at it as two sides, right? I recognize that there are lots of. I want to say there are lots of things that are a combination… It’s a combination of working harder and smarter to get out of debt to get yourself in a position where you can afford to make investments, right? But it’s also having a positive mindset, Cosmos. 

I believe that there are opportunities all around us if we know how to open our eyes to see them. There are, you know, you check the news and there’s going to be negativity everywhere. There is the phrase that used to be popular for print was, If it bleeds, it needs. I think this is true in modern news as well. You know 24/7. 

I have not heard of that. 

You haven’t heard that one. No, it’s it.

What is this? 

If it bleeds, it leads. In other words, the headline news. Right. If you check the news, even local TV shows and news stations, it’s all sensationalized, and the reason is they need the viewership and they need the viewership for the advertising revenue. So, anything that’s sensational or, you know, eye-catching, it’s the. It is abnormal that they want to sensationalize that and try to do so. 

I have a great example of this. I saw a TV show for the entire 30 minutes of the local news segment. They were talking about how they went undercover to a local hotel to try and figure out all The Dirty surfaces and how awful it was that they cleaned the hotel so poorly. 

That’s the whole 30 minutes, right? You know at the intro and outro of all of this. It was all about, hey, just wait, you know, we’re going to tell you what we saw when we went to the hotel and did the undercover study. The end was well, we didn’t find anything wrong. But the whole point was to get you to come and watch this. When there wasn’t anything there. Right. 

There are going to be bad things that happen. There is going to be a recession. You know, I don’t know if there’s going to be a recession, but there is inflation. Does that mean I can’t survive? I can’t eat. No Oh, my gosh. There’s still food in the supermarket. No food on the shelf. There’s, you know. But you know, for a while it was infant formula, you know, before that, it was toilet paper. Yeah, we were running low on toilet paper for a while. In this country. But that doesn’t mean that the world is ending. Right, But I’ve got to find something to fill those airwaves. I’ve got to find something to fill the front page of my newspaper. 

So don’t be caught up in the hype. That’s what I would tell people. Don’t be caught up in the hype. Look for the positive because there are lots of people going out and doing amazing things every day, but they’re not going to be on the front page. And those are the ones that you want to focus on, those you want to fill your mind with. And those are the ones that are going to help you succeed when you fill your mind with the good stuff. Then you’re going to succeed.

I love it, Nathaniel. It’s all about, like, positive, thinking positively But The thing is positive people are not going to make headline news. 

No, they’re not.

And so, that’s the whole point. A lot of most of the most of life, like, there’s a lot of good people. Out there, but we just had that small a tiny percentage because like. The news wants to make them want to make a profit, you know, they want to basically, as You were saying, sensationalize it and so.

They have to because that’s what makes it abnormal. That’s what makes our brains. Right. If you think about it, our brains are wired to focus on the thing that might be dangerous to us. 

So, what do they have to do? They have to tell your brain it’s dangerous out there, and then your brain’s like, oh my gosh, I’ve got to figure it out. Because of that mindset, and it’s just how we were built and wired, we’re trying to protect ourselves. 

And so, you’re always going to be inundated with things that seem dangerous. They will project that danger to you so that you pay more attention to them. Well, you know what to look for the things that are amazing that are awesome. That is extraordinary and you will find them everywhere here. 

That’s awesome, Nathaniel. Yeah, I agree. You know, that’s the thing that will get us into a positive way of thinking, it creates a ripple effect altogether. 

So, I’m going to tell you a fun little story. I don’t know if you’ve heard this one before, but if you’re skiing, right, if you’re skiing and you’re skiing downhill through the trees. What you need to be looking for is not the trees. Do not look for the trees. Do you know why? Because if you look for them, you’re going to hit them. If you look for the holes. You’re going to slide right through the trees. You’re going to miss the trees. And that’s the thing that we need to be looking for in our mindset in our way of living is looking for the holes, looking for the amazing things, the extraordinary things, and then you’re going to miss those trees. You’re not even going to hit them. They’re going to be I Just went through a forest. I didn’t even notice this. 

Yeah, it’s. It’s what we do. You know the reticular activation system, the res, where you focus if you.

Right. 

See if you. Want to see red? You’re going to see red. If you’re going to see if… You want to see it. Something you’re going to look at, your entire brain will be geared towards that.

So, every time I buy a new car, I’m like, oh, look, there’s so many of the same car on the road, right? I never even noticed that there were so many Toyotas on the road until I got a Toyota. With that little T. 

No, I mean it’s so it’s a simple interior, right? But in practice? People find it so hard to like. Follow the simple advice of just like.

You know. Just because it’s simple doesn’t mean it’s easy.

No, it’s just a simple thing, focus on the positive and focus on the extraordinary, and yet most people are finding it so hard to do that they’re always ending up focusing on the negative. 

Well, that’s why I love your podcast. I love your podcast; cause it’s focusing on extraordinary America. I love it.

Thank you, Nathaniel. I appreciate it. 

But so, Nathaniel, can you tell the audience a little bit more about your lo-code road and what it does and more?

So, I’m excited because Speaking of extraordinary, there is new technology out on the market. Back when the World Wide Web first started and computers were still a new thing, right the Internet was still a new thing, you had to know how to write code to Create a website. And people would learn HTML and CSS and JavaScript and PHP and all these things. 

And then someone got smart and said, wait a minute, let me write some software to allow you to help you build the website. And so, we ended up with things like WordPress that allow you to build a website without knowing the code. Believe it or not, today low code and no code allow you to build software without needing to know code.

So, we work with businesses and organizations who want to get out of Excel spreadsheets and into a world of custom software for their business, for pennies on the dollar compared to what they could do even ten years ago, it allows them to get custom software that fits their business needs without having to pay an arm and leg for programmers, and not only that, but we get to teach them how to use their software and make changes to it. 

So, by the time they’re done, they own their software. They’ve got an asset. For the business. And they know how to make changes and grow. Yeah, I’m pretty excited about the new technology that’s out on the market and low code, no code allows organizations I said and individuals to build software without needing to know how to program. That’s pretty awesome.

That is, that is awesome. Like, I mean, for what? It sounds like it will save you a lot of money to people like me, although it has to hire programmers that we know Building websites can be pretty expensive, you know. 

Oh yeah, yeah. And programmers, programmers, as you mentioned, aren’t cheap. They’re making high five figures, low 6 figures. And by year five year 10. Oh my gosh, they’re making you know more than UH-100 a 150 thousand, $250,000 a year. They’re making good money and for good reason too. If you’re a good programmer, you can do an amazing amount of stuff. And with low code and no code, We can help. Companies achieve that stuff without needing to be programmers who pay for programmers. So yeah, it’s awesome.

If there’s anybody in my audience that needs to build a website or whatever it is like, I would recommend your company to them. 

Yeah, it’s going to save them lots of money. It will, it will and honestly, it’s software what we help people do is build software, not necessarily websites. So, there’s low code out there for website development too. Don’t get me wrong and I’m happy to have a conversation with them about that. But what we do is help those businesses with internal business processes. 

Oftentimes they’re using Excel spreadsheets or other things to run their business and we get them out of that. And you know, spreadsheets are paper, you know, we’re working with the company down in Louisiana right now. 

They’re still using Excel spreadsheets to manage all their inventory systems and then paper to manage all Their production lines. We’re going to get them out of that world and into modern technology with iPhones or iPads or, you know, Android devices on the manufacturing floor. And software in the back end to manage inventory, reorder all that kind of stuff. Yeah, but everything from that to the line of business. 

So, you’re going out and trying to figure out, OK, who’s doing what? Make sure we’ve got the right stuff loaded on the right trucks for delivery, making sure we’ve got the right assembly, right, sales, sales pipeline, process management, all that kind of stuff. If you can’t find something you know I want. To say off the shelf. If you can’t find software off the shelf, I’d urge your listeners. Check out low code and no code solutions to solve their problems. 

That is awesome, Nathaniel. So, Nathaniel, is there any other work or projects that you’re working on right now that you the audience get a glimpse of? 

Honestly, no, I’m pretty excited between work and family, I’m pretty busy right now.

We’ve got, we’ve got quite a few teenagers in the house. They’re all teens and young adults. And so yeah, it’s a full house. And I keep myself pretty busy. 

I see. So Nathaniel, how can our audience connect with you and get to know more of, like, local places? They go to.

Yeah, absolutely. our website locoderd.com and I’m you. Can you reach out to me? I think the best email would be navigator@locoderd.com. If they’ve got questions. Happy to help them out. And uh Cosmos, I will say we do have a special offering for your customers, for your listeners and that is that you will offer a free software build for your listeners. So, if they want to get started on low code or no code and they want to reach out. Have them mention your podcast and we’ll be happy to work with them for free. Get them started and into the world of low code and no code. I said, welcome to the world. Welcome to the low code Rd. 

That is also. Nathaniel, it was. It was an honor to have you on this show. And you’re an extraordinary American. You’re doing a business and you’re raising a family simultaneously, which is inspirational to a lot of the family people that want to start a business and become financially free. So, I appreciate that you have done that. You know, and you want to come back as a guest on the show at a later time.

And that sounds wonderful. 

And I want to conclude this show by telling my fellow extraordinary Americans that there is an extraordinary in every one of us, and it is our job to awaken it and unleash it until next time. Bye for now.